On the wet, windy and cold morning of the last day of Peter Tosh's British tour I made my way to the Swiss Cottage Holiday Inn. John Cleese was being filmed in the lobby. What with the weather, the pasty looking film crew and Cleese, the scene couldn't be more British. And scarcely more in contrast with the room I was about to visit on the first floor, occupied by Charles Noel 'Sly' Dunbar and Robert 'Robbie' Shakespeare.

Robbie greeted me at the door wearing Bermuda shorts and a T-shirt, with his dreadlocks tied up in a pile on top of his head. The heat hit me as I entered their room, the temperature well up in the Eighties. The room was dark with the curtains drawn.

We say hello and Sly and Robbie take a seat on each of the double beds in the room; I set up the tape machine. Robbie sees me snap my fingers to set a level and does the same. He sees that only one VU meter jumps and checks that I know only one channel is working. I get the feeling that these fellas are real pros.

If you've bought any Jamaican reggae records recorded since around '76 then there's a 50-50 chance that drummer Sly and bassist Robbie are playing on them, and an 80% chance that Sly or Robbie are making an individual contribution. In '76 Sly became renowned for his countless drumming efforts on records coming out of Channel One studio. Channel One concurrently became the hot studio in Jamaica. Sly began to become very experimental, inventing literally dozens of variations of tempo. One style even became known as Sly Style; many of the island's young drummers follow Sly's playing. Prior to that time, however, he was already established as a major force in the Jamaican music scene.

At the same time Robbie Shakespeare was experimenting with Peter Tosh. Robbie was also well-known individually, but when they started work together the effect was magical. I became aware of them through some superb articles by journalist-turned-New-Musical-Express-editor Neil Spencer.

The night before the interview I'd heard Tosh making a long statement about racism during one of his London Rainbow concerts. I'd began to wonder what I had let myself in for. Sly and Robbie turned out to be two of the warmest and friendliest guys you could wish to meet, happy to spend an hour just talking about their job: making music.

In view of their elite position as top-ranking rhythm section I was surprised that Robbie played rhythm guitar on Sly's Simple Sly Man Virgin album. Ranchie McLean was the credited bassist. Sly explained: 'The rhythm tracks were already recorded but not for an album. They were for vocal material. So we took the vocals off and Robert tracked on guitar at Channel One. But on my new album Robert is playin' bass.'

Apparently Sly has an arrangement with Channel One that allows him to use rhythm tracks. It is in fact quite usual for the rhythm track used on a vocal number to eventually be used for a dub version. This is a slightly altered instrumental or, as in the case of Sly's earlier album, totally different instrumental and vocal tracks.

So how have they spent their time over the last year or so, apart from touring with Tosh? Sly: 'In the studio every day, Saturday and Sunday included. But we're doing some producin' for ourselves now.'

The producers, who often own studios, are those who control finances. Robbie and Sly realise this and are moving more and more into the production area. They already have a showcase album underway, as well as some other 'little scenes'. There is virtually zero opportunity for the young black musician in Jamaica. Music is the lifeblood of the young and so, not surprisingly, they go for the one-in-a-thousand chance of making it via the recording studios. The majority fall prey to the wily older generation producers who fully utilise the flow of teenagers high on desperation and low on education.

Somehow Robbie and Sly have not only survived the Jamaica scene and financially made it (Robbie has a beautiful uptown home, rare for a black in his country), but also, amazingly, they have become neither hard nor callous. Robbie even negotiated recently between musicians and producers to arrange an increase in session rates — something that doesn't affect him personally as he is paid well about flat rates. He is also known for giving a helping hand to young talent.

He explained, 'No, the money wasn't so cool until we decide to get really tight with the producers. If it come to a test a little shufflin'... A little boofin' here and a little boffin' there and it will 'appen, you know?'

My impression was that Robbie was indicating that not all disputes or arguments were settled by words alone in Jamaica. Sly confirmed that they still hear stories of young players being ripped off. How does the local musicians' Union fit in the picture?

SD: We got the union down there but they're not really doing their job. They want you to play for a certain amount of money that is very low.

RS: Probably 20 dollars (about £5) a side.

RD: Because you get paid by the track, not by the hour.

RS: Twenty dollars a side. That's absurd man, for the cost of livin'. A gallon of gas in Jamaica costs nearly four dollars.

SD: So we lay out the price that maybe Robbie was playin' for a certain amount of money and everyone pick up the vibes and say they want the same money. For five years before the price has been the same twenty dollars and the union don't move it.

RS: In Jamaica if the union got a little bit tighter and everyt'ing would be better. I don't know what 'appened to the union down there. They're more for grabbin' than for helpin' the musician and they're helpin' mostly friends, you know. If Tosh do a show out there it come off good in the end. But one or two songs may not reach the audience at the time. Mark you, they go home and t'ink about it and say: Yeah that was a good tune. But at the time they hear it, it don't reach them, right? If someone from the union is there and write up about it you'd never believe it if you see it. But if one of their friends does a show that is very bad — nothing compared to the standard we play — he would write pure good about that man's show. So the music union there is mainly for their friends.

Robbie began working with Tosh around '75, working on singles tracks. He then went on to share bass credits with Aston (Family Man) Barrett on Tosh's Legalise It album released in '76. By the time of the singer's '77 Equal Rights album the band had a name - Words, Sound & Power - and the bass playing and drumming was strictly down to Robbie and Sly. On Tosh's last, Bush Doctor, album the situation was the same, plus the fact that Robbie was helping out with 'production, arrangin' and everyt'ing.'

We talked about the influence of reggae on major composers including Paul Simon and the Beatles. I pointed out that often when a band decides to have a go at a tune with a reggae feel they lapse into reggae cliches like the upward chops on rhythm guitar. The paradox to my ears was that when I saw the twosome with Tosh there wasn't a single cliche to be heard all night. But the music has an unmistakable reggae feel. As far as Sly and Robbie are concerned, part of the reason for this is that they are always experimenting and changing within the reggae framework. A great deal of the time this is to stop themselves from being bored to death in the studio. Remember, for most of the year they're in the studio day in and day out.

RS: When we play on the bandstand with Tosh we play different from recordin'.

SD: On stage I put more guts and drive into the music. In the studio you'd be limited to certain t'ings, right? I mean to say you wouldn't go too far in or too far out of a certain t'ing. On stage you're really not that limited. You're free to open up.

RS: Some sounds are different. I don't know if you notice but we play a lotta tune in Jamaica but most of them sound different. Artist like Peter Tosh. Tosh music is different from Burning Spear. But we play Burning Spear also. Burning Spear is different from Bunny Wailer. He different from (Mighty) Diamonds. Sly and me play with all them, but everyone's music is individual.

RD: More Jamaican musicians seem to be listening to American music these days.

SD: A lot of Jamaican musician listen to American music now. In the early days when I used to play in clubs you had to play more American music than reggae. Now it's more of a balance. You can play more reggae than American in a band now. You also notice American influence coming into reggae.

RS: What we like again... oh yeah, Country and Western.

RD: You like Country and Western!

RS: Yeah (laughs), Marty Robbins and Frankie Laine. That style, real cowboy tune that you hear sad singin' like El Paso. Those are the type of songs I really like listening to. Now in funk I like Earth Wind & Fire. I love listenin' to bass playin', Barry Johnson, Larry Graham and anyt'ing that sounds nice.

SD: Earl Young on drums who plays for Salsoul Orchestra. Also Steve Gadd and Harvey Mason.

RS: Anyt'ing that sound nice, even if it a band you never heard of before.

SD: If it sound good we'll always be listenin'.

RS: Sly always listenin' more than me, Sly always tells me what's going on. I don't like to listen to bass player an awful lot because you listen to him and you get captured by his style of playin', then you can't find yourself. If I really want to rehearse I don't really take up me instrument, I just go and sleep. That's how I rehearse, I sleep with a bass line goin' in my head. Start from (sings simple bass pattern) and when I wake up I feel like I was playin'. Then I can take up my instrument and play what I was dreamin'. Most of it come natural.

RD: Has Stevie Wonder been a major influence? It sounds that way to me, listening to a lot of records coming out of Jamaica. I'm talking about his keyboard playing.

RS: Stevie Wonder, Chick Corea but not really anyone in particular. Because in Jamaica most of the top ones try to be themselves. The moment they get a synthesiser... you know some are harder to program than others, they really don't go by the papers about how to program it. I'll go by my direction how to program it. Keep searchin' and searchin' until it sounds nice. Someone might listen and say you're tryin' to sound like Chick Corea or 'Erbie 'Ancock. But most everyone try for a sound for themself.

Jamaican toaster DJs (who talk over dub or instrumental reggae records) sometimes have custom sound systems incorporating handwound coils and many 'secret' tricks. A major feature is a heavy, thick bass sound that hits you in the stomach. I had the impression that the setup in the recording studios was more straightforward and that the equipment therein was fairly standard. I asked Robbie if it was the musicians and highly influential producers who were more responsible for the distinctive-sounding features of reggae.

'The studios are important also to the sound. The individual musician has to know the sound he wants. Like Sly knows the sound he wants from the drums, right? Me know the sound me want on me bass.'

Most producers leave Robbie and Sly to get their own sound. After all that is why they're booked for the session, they have their own sound which usually means money in the bank for the producers who book them. Needless to say you can't book Robbie or Sly for the standard 20 dollars a track these days. They're paid top dollar because of their distinctive abilities. Producers are more concerned with the songs and the overall effect. It's taken as read that Sly and Robbie almost automatically have a good sound.

Robbie continued: 'After every tune we listen it back and if it don't sound good we take it over (at the desk) and give them direction.' I knew that the studios in Jamaica have somewhat limited facilities compared with those in the States and Europe. I asked Sly what equipment they have at Channel One, presuming that, as the studio is top rated, he would answer 16-track or thereabouts.

'No Channel One is 4-track.' We all three cracked up. They could see the funny side of it, having not so long ago travelled half way around the globe to record the last Tosh album at the latest space-age studios. Sly went on: 'They're supposed to get a 16-track this year. They have an API Automated Processes board and the machines are 2- and 4-track. So all they are supposed to do is get a 16-track tape machine and hook it up to the same board. So they'll have the same sound but more tracks.' And what make is the 4-track? 'Ampex.' 'Ampex and what?' asked Robbie. Sly replied, 'Studer, and they have an MCI 2-track.'

Do the different producers use varying mic techniques on the drum kit or do they leave it all up to Sly? 'We work together, they want my sound so I get myself set up. Some studio have different mic and some may 'ave the same. Some may use a Sennheiser on the snare and others use AKG. But they all go for the same basic snare sound. Each studio has their own special mics for snare, bass drum and tom toms.'

The tendency is towards close miking. Between eight and ten mics are usually employed on the kit, with two of them on the snare — one for the idiomatic reggae rim shots and the other for more sound from the head.

I asked Robbie how the other important studios compared. 'OK, Channel One is 4-track, Treasure Island is 2-, 4- and 8-track, Joe Gibbs Studio is 2-, 4-, 8- and 16-track. At Harry J's you 'ave 2-, 4-, 8- and 16-track. Dynamic is strictly 24-track with a little 2-track for some t'ings. I don't really t'ink we got any more studio to that. Because these are real professional places. You 'ave so many little studio companies but you use those more for voicin'. If you want to lay a rhythm track down you go to one of those four studios.'

As might be expected Tosh's signing with the Rolling Stones record label gave him a budget eclipsing the amount of money that is usually spent on an album in Jamaica. Robbie explained: 'We started with the bass and drums in Jamaica, with some guitar and a few pianos on the tracks. From there we went to Bearsville Studio in Woodstock to track on most of the rest of the instruments. We left there for Media Sound where we recorded the horns and background voicin'. Then we went back to Bearsville to mix.'

Sly uses a Ludwig kit with four or five toms, both in the studio and on gigs. He has, by the way, toured the UK since '72, with Skin, Flesh & Bones (accompanying Dennis Brown), Toots and the Maytals, Cynthia Richards and Al Brown, in '76 on the Virgin U-Roy/Mighty Diamonds tour, alongside Big Youth in '77, and in '79 with Peter Tosh. Of late he's also been using Synare 3 synthesised drums, again on stage and in the studio. I told Sly I was surprised how well he had integrated them into reggae.

SD: I bought them in New York and used them on my new Virgin album. I've used them on a couple of songs we're producin' now. Also on some tracks for Channel One and I Jah Man. When I go home I'll be usin' them more often.

RS: Instrumentally you find musician first in Jamaica always t'ink that reggae can only use bass, drums, organ, piano and probably some lead or rhythm guitar... — and probably some horns. No, you can take anyt'ing you hear in a funky tune, rock'n'roll, disco, anyt'ing can work with reggae. Synthesiser, clavinet, anyt'ing, just name it. It can work in reggae if it is the right phrase in the right place at the right time.

I have to admit I can't quite see the logic behind Sly's choice of using different weight sticks for each hand. For those who might, here is what he had to say on the subject. 'I use special sticks, Regal Tip Combo in my right hand, and in the left I use 5ARUs, a stick they call Duraline. I use a smaller one for my right hand so I can come in much lighter. When you're playin' a roll on the drums you get two different sounds because one is heavy and one is light. So what I do is put some wide paper tape around so I get around the same balance. When you play like ticka-ticka-ticka-tick with the two different stick you're gettin' two different sounds. So with the tape for balance you're gettin' one complete sound. I use the double-coated skin, the ones with the oil in between. And sometime I use the Black Dot Remo, but it all depend on the particular sound I want at the time. The double-coated is all right but the Black Dot has more ring in it. The double one has a deader sound, I prefer the Remo because I can get more life out of it.'

Robbie records by direct injection using a Fender amp as a monitor in the studio. 'Most studios in Jamaica 'ave Fender amps for bass and guitar.' Interestingly it transpires that the studios also have their own instruments. This appears to be part of the aim of each studio to have a consistent and recognisable sound. I suspect also that many of the younger musicians are never paid enough to allow them to be able to afford decent instruments of their own. Robbie continued: 'We get a sound from the Fender amplifier but actually it make no difference, it's the bass the tone's comin' from. I use different basses in different studios. At Channel One we use a Hofner. Joe Gibbs 'eard about the sound and he bought a Hofner. Then for Treasure Isle, Harry J's and Dynamic I a Fender Jazz. I 'ave my own settings for each studio to give me the sound I want for each place.'

Was that the Fender he used for some numbers at the Rainbow gig? 'That was a Jazz bass but not the one I'm talkin' about. The one I'm talkin' about I leave in Jamaica because it comin' to me like a special Fender. Everyt'ing about it is nice. It's old, but not that old. It looks new but it was when Leo Fender was makin' these t'ings. The neck, action and everyt'ing is firm. Even if someone can't really play they can come in and take up that Fender and sound like a superb musician, eh Sly? (Sly gives an affirmative nod). I use Fender flatwound strings. I use the Hofner on stage because of the lightness and the tone of it. See now I must change it because that one in particular, I 'ave it since before I could really play bass. So it kind of old now, time for it to go into retirement right now. It play a lotta hit records in Jamaica. It's time for it to go outside and make way for the younger folks now. At the moment I 'ave about two Hofners. It would be t'ree but one got burnt up when I left it in a club overnight. From that I don't really leave me instrument nowhere, I always 'ave it now. I 'ave two Hofners, one Guild and one Fender.

I mentioned the Alembic's wide tonal range with the active electronics. 'Yeah, we work up a tone for ourselves. It may take a little time to find it. That Hofner you have to play it and use your finger to give it a tone. By movin' your finger playing it upright, or this way (indicates fingers of left hand at an angle to strings). To give a tone everyt'ing is important, the amount of pressure you're puttin' on the t'ing.'

At this point Robbie's and Sly's manager, Mr Miller, entered the room telling the musicians they were already late for a business meeting at Virgin Records. Sly was staying over in London for an extra week or two; 'Just checkin' on the royalties,' said Mr Miller. So what about when they get home?

SD: Back to heavy session work but doin' a lot more for ourselves now. Because we're actually producin' sounds for other producers now and they're makin' all the money. So we'll be back in the studio all the time but spend more time on our own work.

RS: We two together can play practically any instrument, except for horns. I can play piano, Sly can play piano and organ, I can play rhythm and lead guitar and bass. Sly can play drums. So we can record trackin' on two instruments at a time. We're plannin' to do a whole album that way.

As they were already fifteen minutes late for their meeting we wound up the interview. Robbie showed me to the door saying, 'I'm glad we get together this mornin' and 'ave this little chat.'

The last I heard they were back in the studio in Jamaica with The Revolutionaries cutting rhythm tracks.