Live dance music is often seen as either a joke, a TOTP publicity stunt, or all too often just a great disappointment. Christopher Holder talks to 808 State frontman, Graham Massey about the band's efforts to change all that.

Guitar riffs landing like shot towers, snare hits dropping like hand grenades, flowing phrases of latin percussion punctuated by round house synth stabs, all blasting out on to a 'well up for it' moshing crowd. Not exactly the scene many would immediately associate with an 808 State gig, but the components were all there on their recent UK tour with Club Megadog. No, not even the merest hint of the lab coat wearing, knob-twiddling sterility that we are told should characterise a standard perfunctory approach to a dance music personal appearance (PA). In fact, 808 State live are anything but sterile, and nothing short of brutal. Banks of synthesisers share the stage with a drum kit and guitars, while sequenced synth lines compete for equal air time with real-time performance.

In 808 State frontman, Graham Massey, I found a musician with uncompromising integrity, and a band leader whose musical plans have been partially hijacked by the expectations created by 808 State's own phenomenal success, with hits such as 'Pacific 202', 'In Yer Face', and 'Cubik' earlier in the decade. Unless you fancy a swift slap from the boys, 808 State aren't a happy hardcore band, and computers don't make their music. The reality is that on-stage they display a maturity and musicality that puts the 'intelligent' into Intelligent Techno.

BLEEP BOX & SYNC LEAD

It's impossible to reliably foresee what 808 State will be famous for in the future, but for the moment the group are, of course, primarily known for electronic dance music, and for bringing a new level of virtuosity to the orchestration of their impressive ensemble of synthesizers, samplers, and drum machines. But on stage, their reliance on the pre-programmed is far out-weighed by the performed. I put this apparent contradiction to Graham.

"For us, playing live is getting the music across with a bit of excitement, and I've seen too many MIDI-based bands that don't do that. We've been doing live work for about eight years now, and when we started off, it was in the DJ booth with [Roland TB] 303s and [TR] 808s synced up, which wasn't sufficient to get our music across. We knew we would have to put on a bit more of a show, particularly for the tours abroad."

You think the UK has become a bit forgiving of the 'head down knob-twiddlers'?

"Yeah, it's become acceptable in this country to do that kind of thing, while if you go and do three months in America, you've got to be able to put on a show. You can't just go overboard on the 'technology-fest'. You've got to put a bit of sweat into it."

ALL GOING PETE TONG?

Be that as it may, don't be misled, 808 State are first and foremost a dance music outfit and are chiefly about synthesizers and technology. However, their on-stage interpretation carries a density of sound that can only come from a real performance, by real performing musicians. Those musicians are Graham Massey, Andrew Barker, and Darren Partington — the long-standing Mancunian triumvirate that have seen 808 State time-travel through the heady days of acid house and nascent techno in the late '80s, through the euphoric realm of the rave in the '90s, to the present day. Their most recent album, Don Solaris, indicates a more eclectic dance movement where the innovators are looking to disparate influences and acoustic components to bring a new slant on an age-old aim, ie. getting people to 'funk their groove thang'.

808 State have always ploughed a fairly lonely musical furrow, choosing the individual and the unique, eschewing the copy cat 'follow me' approach to dance that we lesser mortals are always unduly influenced by. I wondered how they maintain the ability to follow their own musical path and still sound unerringly contemporary — a combination that I imagine doesn't result from tuning in to Pete Tong's Radio One show each week.

"No, not really, we've never compared our music to what's going on at the time. And I mean, we've never been electronic purists either. To me, it's about what it sounds like to your ears and what it does to your head, not how you do it. As for the novelty of pure electronics, well there's just so many people doing it now that it ceases to be relevant. At one point, it was a political move to not have guitars, but now that's redundant. Now with so much pure electronics about, it's almost political to have a guitar. So we generally go against the grain.

"At the moment, the sound we're trying to get is psychedelic and more rooted in the '70s, like Miles Davis' stuff — quite complex and exotic. The group Weather Report is another good example of one of the bands that have influenced us. They had a long history and kept re-interpreting their own material in quite radical ways. We incorporate the kind of textures and chords they use, and like us using the soprano sax, their music had lots of diverse flavours.

"Admittedly in the early days, the biggest influence for us was the equipment. It was just the fact that the thrill was 'hey, it sounds just like a Detroit (techno) record', in that it's got those sounds. But once you've done that you're just trying to move away from straight emulation, and instead you're thinking, 'what else can you get out of it?', and the fact that you can mess with that technology. You know it was a big deal back in 1987/88 that these machines could talk to each other, now the novelty has worn off a bit."

A KEEN INCITE

With this in mind, it's quite easy to see 808 State fulfilling a role as the new wave fusion band of the '90s, thick with the 'exotica' of the soprano sax, latin percussion, and the squelching unpredictability of vintage analogue lead lines. But there's a big leap between all this on-stage jamming and the glossiness of studio sequencing. To achieve their sound, the group's on-stage roles are carefully delineated. Graham takes on the role of principal instrumentalist, at any one stage getting In Yer Face on his Mini Moog, grunging it up on his beloved Fender Strat, or catching the Coltrane on his soprano sax; Andrew is the resident Sheik of Tweak, working the modulation wheel on his Roland D-50 and Juno 106 with possessed ferocity, controlling the sequenced synth lines and playing stabs and backing lines; Darren takes on the MC mantle (inciting the crowd more effectively than Eric Cantona at Elland Road), as well as triggering rhythm samples from an octopad, going live on his own latin drum kit, or bringing in scratch effects from his Technics SL1200s; lastly, on this tour, Colin Seddon has been given the unenviable task of re-creating the 808 State rhythms on his drum kit. It's difficult to think of a more incompatible repertoire than 808 State's for a live drummer substitute, so I was curious as to how Colin coped.

"I'm quite pleased with the way he's integrated now, because when we first started on tour he was playing from dots, notating the whole thing. You realise that when you're using the technology, you're not stuck with the eight bar patterns; in fact, you're deliberately mixing the eight bar patterns up, and sticking a seven in — that sort of thing. He had to come into that and learn that."

The notation must have looked like a cross between a piano roll and a dot-to-dot puzzle book. Leaving all drummer jokes to one side, wasn't that a big ask?

"He's a bit of a fruit cake, so he quite enjoyed the learning element. He's now forgotten about all the dots and knows the music as well as we do, so he can now work within it."

SEQUENCER VS TAPE

I knew that in the past Graham has grappled with the thorny issue of sequencers versus tape, to provide the backing. There are various pros and cons regarding reliability and flexibility, so I had to know what the latest 808 State philosophy was to sequencers live on stage, and discovered a compromise.

"Most of our backing is on ADAT, but we also have an Atari running Cubase tied with code to the Alesis. The Atari runs the synth lines that we tweak in real-time."

Speaking of Alesis, have you dabbled with the Alesis MMT-8, a hardware unit a lot of groups swear by as a live sequencer?

"No, we never have done. Although what I have used, before when working with Bjork is the [Roland] MC-500. I found that to be pretty reliable."

Reliable compared to most software-based sequencers you mean?

"Yeah. We know people who have been using Mac Powerbooks on stage, but again computers live are really temperamental when you're hammering it night after night. I'll rely only on computers and software sequencers in controlled situations, but we certainly can't use them reliably on tour. We've done it before, but never again."

"Now with so much pure electronics about, it's almost political to have a guitar."

Although there is still a stigma about using tape, isn't there? As opposed to doing it 'live' on sequencers?

"Sure there is, but you've got to rely on your own integrity on that count. I think we do have a lot of live elements going on, enough to make the show different every night and to be able to react off the audience. As long as you've got that, people won't feel cheated."

Still, you can hardly 'go off on one', adding an extra 32, bars to your solo, given that tape is of a finite length.

"True, but that's the compromise you have to make. We've done it both ways, and you find with sequencers you don't get right into that improvisation side, you just end up saying, 'thank god, it worked'. From a musician's point of view, it sets you right on edge."

But isn't that threat of imminent meltdown one of the major buzzes of live sequencing?

"To an extent, but I'd rather concentrate on the elements that are about performance, and not about the technology involved."

MASSEY ATTACK

In an introduction to their gig, Darren Partington said so delicately of 808 State: "we've been around for f***ing ever". They should therefore be in a good position to make some well-informed value judgements on the state of the today's dance music scene. But first I needed to ask a more fundamental question about the very notion of live dance music itself. I put to Graham that dance music is about the energy created from sound textures and not the notes or patterns themselves, and given that the sound and 'feel' created in the studio (particularly on analogue gear) is difficult or impossible to re-create, live dance music will always be a disappointment. Furthermore, given that live music is about interacting musicians creating new interpretations of their music on stage, isn't 'live dance music' by definition a contradiction in terms?

"I know what you're getting at there, because a lot of modern electronic music does rely on hi-fi systems and controlled environments. But I think an 808 State gig is more about chaos and a lot more about sheer noise going off. Sure, you can't accurately re-create what's on a CD, but rather than make that a problem we run headlong at the differences in being live, and have made a feature of it."

What about the punters who'll be expecting to hear something like what comes out of their stereo?

"I hope they can be a bit more open-minded than that."

And I can vouch for the fact that they were. There may have been some disappointment amongst the small 'Saturday night disco' faction, but the only difficulty the rest of us in the crowd had with 808 State's re-interpretations was in getting enough space on the dance floor to do anything but heave up and down with the other thousand-odd people.

It's undeniable that the traditional rock concert format does wonders for helping keep that scene vibrant and progressive, shouldn't the same apply for the dance scene?

"I think so, but remember, live dance music is a well-established thing now. We go around Europe, around Japan, and America... we were in Brazil a couple of weeks ago doing the same thing, and you find it's pretty much established everywhere — people with their equipment putting on shows."

"You know it was a big deal back in 1987/88 that these machines could talk to each other, now the novelty has worn off a bit."

But in the dance scene either you're successful and turning down PAs left, right, and centre, or you're struggling and finding it difficult to get your music heard anywhere outside your bedroom. I mean, there aren't really many platforms for dance acts where they can cut their teeth in a live situation, are there?

"Sure, and I'd like to see more bands having a go, doing it live rather than just relying on DJs. After all, there are plenty of dance nights happening, and if every one of those dance nights gave opportunities to do something live, that would be a start. I know that in Manchester we're quite lucky. You can go see the likes of Autechre play, and there are nights where there are smaller scale gigs going on. I think we're just lucky that way."

After all, it's not as though crowds don't respond to PAs, they really create a buzz, don't they?

"Yeah, you notice it at places like Glastonbury and Phoenix, where it's becoming quite an established thing to have a dance tent, and have acts on. It's getting there and has improved a lot since we first started. We were always the novelty and the support act for a lot of years."

LAGER, LAGER, LAGER

The likes of Underworld and the Chemical Brothers have increased the profile of dance music as a viable live option. What do you think of the rise and rise of the hybrid techno/new lad indie bands?

"For me, they've been around a long time. The likes of the Chemical Brothers have been in Manchester as Aerial for many years, and then as the Dust Brothers, so their sudden popularity is a bit shocking. I can't quite see why they're so big, but on the other hand I can, because they do one thing very well, and when you put them in a live situation, they can work as a rock band. Their music doesn't try and take on too many facets, so I guess that's why it works. But I find them a one trick horse, myself."

So you don't see a long-term future for these bands in their present guise?

"Well, not necessarily, it's just that I'm more interested in finding bands with defined musical personalities again. 808 State are in the position of doing our eighth album; I can't imagine what, say, Orbital's eighth album would sound like, or Underworld's eighth album. This is something we've had in mind for many years — making each record a progression, and making each one different and not doing the same stuff over and over again."

I don't know whether you can tar Orbital with the same brush, can you?

"Maybe not. I saw them on their last tour, and there was this great bit in the middle of their set when the music went incredibly dark. For me, it was a case of 'at least they're going somewhere with it', whereas most of the time, they'll be sounding exactly like they did maybe four or five years ago."

Live dance has come a long way since the days when you started out and is beginning to be awarded the seriousness it deserves. Orbital played their famous date at Albert Hall, and festivals are increasingly taking it on, but can dance music ever fully escape the club and dancefloor environment and survive in the concert hall or stadium?

"Don't forget we are the original stadium techno band. In the States, we did the Hollywood Bowl, and we were one of the first to do the GMEX in Manchester, in front of about 16,000 people. Our music works on a big scale — it's big music, you can put it in a big space. But at the same time, some of the best gigs have been little sweaty Saturday nights in Newcastle, like these Megadog gigs. So, yeah, the music can survive, but it depends whether as a band you want it to."

With Christmas No.1 lunacy such as Mr. Blobby and the two dimensional pap of the likes of 2 Unlimited or our illustrious Eurovision entrant, it is too easy to carry a jaundice view of dance music and its practitioners. Refreshingly Graham Massey is one of the dance progenitors whose approach stems from a less cynical era, and where working live on stage affords the flexibility for experimentation and self-expression — as it should.

Gets me to thinking, will that eighth album be 808 State — Live & Unplugged, Graham?

"Err... no."

"I only ever get to do those two tunes ('Pacific 202' and 'Joyrider'), we ended up having to write a soprano tune for this tour, really because we were getting a bit sick of just doing Pacific."

Roland JD800 — "been a bit battered since an American tour three years ago. We've never got the keys we lost back on it, and that's our master keyboard!"

Yamaha CS50 — "I can't switch it on until about 10 minutes before the gig; any longer and the whole thing goes ape shit. It's really the ultimate racket machine."

Moog Liberation — given its portability, it's about as liberating as an arranged marriage to a breeze block, and "a bit temperamental... good for screaming sounds; and I love the ribbon bender on it. But it's not made for subtlety."

Roland Juno 106 and D-50 — both given a thorough pitch bend and mod wheel work out by Andrew Barker.

Roland Octopad — used by Darren to trigger an Akai sampler.

Alesis ADAT — provides the backing tracks and "occasionally falls out of sync with the Atari".

Lexicon Jam Man — the only effects unit in the rack for keyboards, and great for flowing in loops on-the-fly.

Roland Space Echo — "permanently goes on my saxophone. It just helps the sound to float."

Musicman bass — "not for actually playing basslines with".

Fender Stratocaster — "probably my favourite instrument on stage".

Ibanez double-necked 6/12-string combination — "bit of a budget model, but my one great indulgence".

Pedals

2 Electro Harmonix Big Muffs — "one for the bass, one for the guitar".

Electro Harmonix Memory Man echo unit Digitech Whammy pedal — "which I'm well into. I use the Whammy pedal a lot in recording as well, putting guitars and wind instruments through it."

BBE Sonic Maximiser — "one of the few things we take with us for putting over FOH. I find it can really focus our sound."

Graham's backline setup is rudimentary, if not a little unusual. For guitars, he uses a Peavey Triumph amp (1 x 12-inch combo), which he props up 'wedge-like' at front-of-stage with the monitors. Why? "Because it's more controllable for the FOH bloke, with there being less spill on stage. It's also gives me more control over feedback on my guitar sound." The Triumph does need careful attention. It's switchable between a clean sound and what Peavey call 'crunch' and 'ultra'; the sound from 'ultra' provides a desirable, screaming overdriven valve distortion, which is pretty unstable. Controlled feedback aside, how do 808 State avoid feedback problems when miking up an amp placed front-of-stage? It turns out that the guitar sound isn't present in the monitor mix, as the sound from the Peavey 120W amp is deemed "loud enough".

Graham's Musicman bass is DI'ed into an Electro Harmonic Big Muff pedal, then straight into the desk without any backline amplification — hardly worth carting huge quantities of backline ballast for the one song where the bass appears.

With so many keyboard and sound sources you may think that the life of a monitor engineer should be complicated and tedious. Graham and Andy save the monitor engineer a lot of problems by compiling their own keyboard monitor mix levels via their own personal rackmount mixers. In the monitor mix the only thing that requires any amount of work in soundcheck is Graham's soprano saxophone.