AFTER SIX YEARS AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE INDEPENDENT SCENE, SWANS HAVE FINALLY COME OF AGE. ANDY COWAN TALKS TO SINGER/SONGWRITER MICHAEL GIRA ABOUT THEIR MAJOR LABEL DEBUT AND THE TRANSITION FROM BRAIN CHURNING NOISE MERCHANTS TO THOUGHTFUL BALLADEERS.

I'D BEEN WARNED about Michael Gira. A notoriously sticky interview subject — his press officer advised me not to mention the past. But what a past, I protested, until I heard the new LP.

Since their inception in 1982, Swans have always been a magnet for controversy. Led by Gira with long-time sidekick Norman Westberg (guitar) the New York based band have acquired a reputation for challenging audience preconceptions and expectations. Their first two albums Filth and Cop were collections of minimal, abrasive dirges with Gira's pained poetry nestling uncomfortably on top.

The seeds of change were sown by the recording of two albums under the guise of Skin. Conceived simultaneously these were solo collections by Gira and Jarboe, his lover, who joined Swans full-time in 1985. The project seemed to have a cathartic effect, feeding into 1987's critically acclaimed Children Of God double set.

Further indications of their new direction came with last year's reverent recording of Joy Division's 'Love Will Tear Us Apart', a song close to Gira's heart. On The Burning World the transition is complete. It's a remarkable album, not only in structure and sound but also in terms of accessibility, a word not usually associated with Swans.

"We started trying to use more acoustic and more natural sounds in our songwriting", Michael explains. "We've shied away from the more confrontational music we did in the past. It's good, with this album we're completely jettisoning our past."

The relief in Michael's voice is palpable. Contrary to expectations he is quiet and amiable. He speaks slowly and deliberately, content to answer questions in a few well chosen words rather than rant aimlessly. Swans have shed a lot of excess baggage with The Burning World, the first fruit of a worldwide deal with MCA/Uni that stipulates complete artistic control.

He's disparaging of accusations of selling out, tossing off such notions with "I'm indifferent to it really." He's keen, though, to talk about Swans new direction and the inner workings of his band. As sole songwriter Swans are very much Gira's personal project. Whilst he admits to being a bit of a dictator he's eager to qualify the contributions of Jarboe and Norman.

"I think anyone who's a good bandleader knows what talents other people have and they can integrate that into what they're doing. That's why I hopefully integrate to good use the talents of Jarboe and Norman.

"Jarboe's an excellent singer, she comes up with great counter melodies and she writes great songs on her own anyway," he explains. "As for Norman, I mean I know what he's capable of and what his ilk is, so when I think about something I think about it in terms of them. It's not like I give them every note to play."

It's this empathy that has led to the mature, distinctive sounds of their new recording. Another important factor was the input of co-producer Bill Laswell, best known for his playing in Last Exit and a vast array of production credits including Iggy Pop, Herbie Hancock, Motorhead and Public Image Limited.

"Oh I think he's a wonderful person," enthuses Michael. "He's a really good producer too. He's got a good ear and he helps you organise sounds." It was Laswell's pedigree as a musician, though, that prompted Swans to work with him.

"That's definitely his main asset," Michael affirms. "He's not just a producer who's interested in making a glistening pop record. He's more interested in getting at the real music and making the thing happen musically and making it feel right, making sure the performances are done with correct attention to detail and emotion. He doesn't give a toss about commercial success."

Laswell was also responsible for bringing a variety of additional musicians to the sessions, fleshing out Michael's original compositions, as he explains: "I write all the songs on acoustic guitar. Everything's written, finalised and all the details worked out before we go into the studio. We had ideas for the songs and Bill has a whole stable of of people he usually works with. He was able to choose the musicians that we wanted. In fact, they're far superior musicians than I would have chosen on my own."

"WE'VE SHIED AWAY FROM THE MORE CONFRONTATIONAL MUSIC WE DID IN THE PAST. WITH THIS ALBUM WE'RE COMPLETELY JETTISONING OUR PAST."

Some of the guests include Indian double violinist, L Shankar, avant-garde veteran Fred Frith on violin, Nicky Skopelitis on baglama and bouzouki, percussionist Aiyb Dieng, and tabla-player Trilok Gurtu. The result is a tasteful but never eclectic mix, the perfect accompaniment to Gira's words which see him, more than ever, exploring the human condition with a refreshing lack of melodrama or sentimentality.

"That's real intentional. We shied very strongly away from hard aggressive sampled sounds. We did use sampling for textures and stuff. I'm really sick of big, pompous sampled sounds that generate 'power', which to me are just like a gate opening. They're just some frequencies on tape, and it's a really artificial kind of language. I just want to move away from that and try to generate things more naturally."

In spite of the changes to their sound, the songs still function as a personal release. Michael says he writes because "I wouldn't know what else to do with myself really." He's reluctant, though, to explain what specific songs are about.

"I mean there's probably three or four ways of looking at them," he qualifies. 'They're not just vague nothings. There's some love songs and there's some, ha ha, death songs."

In tandem with the music his lyric writing and singing has also evolved. New songs such as 'God Damn The Sun' display a narrative style, something that Michael claims happened by accident.

"It happens every once in a while, but I don't seem to have very much control over what I write. I'm usually not very good at telling a specific story but I did a couple of times on this record. I don't really know how that happened. I wish I was better at it."

What's more, the album title reflects Michael's concern about the state of the world, something he finds difficult to articulate in the context of a song.

"There's a couple of subjects right now that really concern me, that I feel pretty strongly about," he says. "But I wouldn't know how to write about them without being incredibly, dismally cliched.

"For instance, some of the subject matter refers elliptically, within the contents of the songs, to environmental apocalypse. There's a big problem in the world right now, in fact I think it's a major emergency, but I wouldn't know how to polemicise about it too skillfully, so I just put it in a more personal context. I kind of stuck in images that I thought alluded to that, like 'a hole in the sky'."

The Burning World, while being a marked advance from their past work, continues Swans unflagging commitment to undiluted purity, intensity and directness of expression. For Gira it marks a direct shift to more traditional song structures, something he is intent on realising without succumbing to the usual clichés.

"It's one thing to start writing songs using the convention of verse/chorus but it's another thing to sink into retrograde nostalgia", he begins, "and that's something I really don't want to do. I'm interested in reviving the form, at least for myself, and hearing something new. I don't want to hark back to some nostalgic 60's folk sound or something, y'know."

One of the many high points of The Burning World is a stunning cover of Steve Winwood's classic 'Can't Find My Way Home', originally recorded by Blind Faith. Beautifully sung by Jarboe it's an audacious and surprising move. What else, then, does Michael Gira listen to? In the past Iggy Pop and Johnny Cash have always been cited as major influences.

"IT'S ONE THING TO START WRITING SONGS USING THE CONVENTION OF VERSE/CHORUS BUT IT'S ANOTHER THING TO SINK INTO RETROGRADE NOSTALGIA."

"Oh I havn't listened to that stuff for years," Michael claims. "Although I still listen to Johnny Cash once in a while.

"I've been listening to some medieval music, actually, which I think is pretty nice. This woman from Germany, called Heligon von Bingen singing songs from the 11th century. She sings beautiful, sad, devotional songs. I listen to some of that and songs from the Spanish court in the 14th century and I realise I don't know what they mean!"

At present Swans are in the throes of a full scale European tour, with the addition of new members Virgil Moorefield on drums and Jason Asnes on bass. Their live shows are renowned for being highly exalted affairs. The Children Of God tour saw them playing at brain curdling volume, Gira shedding all his clothes during the course of a performance and shoving his bare buttocks into the faces of the front row. An absurd spectacle, a maelstrom of sound, Swans conscripting the audience to share in communal exorcism.

This time round, the choice of material will differ considerably.

"Yeah, it's gonna be all new stuff. It goes from very pastoral ballads to real endlessly ascending crescendos. Hopefully, it will lift the place off the ground when we play."

Their last big tour was fraught with difficulties with promoters and complaints about the noise, a factor partly responsible for Swans inclusion on the infamous Town & Country Club blacklist. This has fed an aversion to touring that Michael still feels.

"I despise touring because of the business involved and the people you have to meet and deal with", he says. "I enjoy the moment of performing but that's about one hour in 23 hours of misery. I don't know if I'm looking forward to it or not."

Michael's not too keen either on having to promote his work. He regards it as something of a chore. For him the joy rests in producing an honest, innovative record and in the spontaneity and brimstone of a live performance. He's guarded and careful not to give too much of his private self away in conversation. He has no abiding interest in the cult of personality.

"Well I'm really indifferent to that," he says. "But it is a business. You have to have a recognisable, for lack of a better word, image or moniker anyway. So doing that's just advertising. That's how I look at interviews. It's just advertising."

A necessary evil then, but surely he's finally beginning to reap some rewards for his toil. Past albums have devoted themselves to an exploration of power exchanges with money as the central theme, contrasted against the (in)dignity of labour. Typically, Michael is unable to divorce the two when I ask if he's attracted to money.

"I'm attracted to not having to go back and work as a construction worker, yes."

There are no definite plans for Swans after the tour.

"Actually, I'd really like to go to Africa, I don't know how much time I'll have," he says, adding, "1 suppose we'll record another album soon. But we have to tour and see what happens first."

I, for one, can't wait. The world might not burn to Swans, but your ears will.