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Nile RodgersArticle from International Musician & Recording World, June 1986 |
Super-guitarist, super-producer and Superstar, Nile Rodgers must be doing something right. Our exclusive, in-depth interview with the man and his production team reveals all...
Producer Nile Rodgers and his team of technicians tell of the ideas and methods that have helped bring success to so many household names from Jagger to Jarreau.
There are times when it seems like Nile Rodgers has done it all. As a guitarist whose chops cover the territory from Classical music to Hendrix and stop off to do Bebop and Blues along the way, he's firmly established his reputation within the R&B tradition laid down by Jimmy Nolen, Curtis Mayfield, Steve Cropper, and others. Throughout Chic's long and golden career, Rodgers' shifting chordal lines mimicked a horn section, created jagged harmonies and whapped out syncopated rhythms to move those dancing feet. As a producer-songwriter whose credits include work with artists like David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Diana Ross, Madonna, Sister Sledge, Sheenah Easton, Thompson Twins, Philip Bailey, and Al Jarreau (not to mention film and TV scores), Rodgers has become a major hitmaker with a distinctive sound, in the tradition of Leonard Chess, Sam Philips, and Berry Gordy. The line for his services stretches out the door and into the future at Skyline Studios, home of Nile Rodgers Productions, Inc.
In fact, Skyline is more than a home base – it's quite probably the most elaborate home studio in the world. Like precious few other musicians – Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Wonder, Booker T and the MGs – Nile has achieved the player's ultimate dream: constant access to a state-of-the-art studio. And a state-of-the-art team as well, co-workers whose camaraderie transforms the crunch of a busy workload (NRP Inc. typically brings an album from demo to final mix in eight weeks!) into a creative breeze. Here we take a look inside and get a glimpse of how this mini-Motown churns out the hits.
IM&RW: If you had to describe the key elements of your sound, what would they be?
Nile Rodgers: It's sort of difficult, but then it's always hard to describe your own thing. I probably place more importance on smaller things than on the larger, more apparent things. But the one thing that's in almost all my records is a feeling for the importance of the rhythm section. I guess that developed from me being a rhythm section player, and coming out of Chic, where the rhythm section was it. I grew up around these old-timers, Red Garland types, who could just sit around and call out changes, like V or VII, and they knew you could hear enough to know what type of chord it was – major, minor, dominant, whatever. If you'd just define some kind of minor chord, say, somebody in the band had every extension from the 7th on up. So I got into a thing where I started playing only the upper definitions of chords; I wouldn't even deal with the root, I'd only play extensions. Coming up in that atmosphere, the syncopations and unusual voicings are still part of my thing. And, of course, rarely do I make a record without guitar on it mainly because I want to play on everything and I play guitar (laughs).
IM&RW: So you've been starting records off with jamming again?
NR: It's like the old days – yeah, the old days of a year and a half ago (laughs). But when you finish that process, the record is damn near finished. The lead vocalist can come in and do the vocal, and when we leave the studio that day we have it sounding basically like what the record will be, the essence of the track.
IM&RW: You work very quickly and yet at the same time you give the people you work with a lot of leeway, a lot of input in the process of making a record. Do you see those two characteristics as being linked?
NR: I've been very lucky. I have good musical instincts, but I guess I learned how to produce the same way you learn how to drive; you know, the teacher says, 'If the car's going straight don't steer it, just hold the wheel.'
When I work with an artist, if they're doing something and it's right I don't even say anything – what's to say? But then if it's not, because of the way my mind works I can usually come up with something very quick that can keep them from veering off the road. It's a nice thing, because if somebody has faith in you to come up with ideas on the spot, they never feel stranded – or at least I hope that's what it is (laughs). I realise now that when I used to work with Bernard that's what we used to give each other, so it just stayed part of my style. I mean, if I was looking for a part and couldn't find it, he could come up with it; and that's how we learned to produce. I'm sure that, even though I haven't worked with him lately, that's the way he works, too. You wait, and if the artist can't find it, you throw in your two cents. To me, that's your job as a producer.
IM&RW: Do you think, as a New York producer, there is such a thing as a New York sound.
NR: I do believe that there is some sort of difference in the style of production with the New York producers as opposed to say, LA. I always think that it's a lifestyle difference; in New York we're always pushed to the limit, we're always on the edge. Like with me: a typical day begins around 12 or 1pm when I come in to work, then we get off around 2, 3, 4 in the morning – we never know when we're gonna stop. And then I'll either go home and write music or hang out with friends and listen to music, see bands, because you're always getting ideas that way. There are always a million options in New York even at four in the morning, and I usually take them up (laughs), because they feed you with ideas.
When I was working in LA – man, 8 o'clock rolled around, we split. We left the studio, we all went out and had dinner – it was very civilised and very nice. It wasn't something I couldn't get into, but I know that if I lived there my life would probably be like that, and I'm sure it would show up in my music. Not to say that it's a bad thing, but it is a different thing. I can feel the difference when I meet artists from California.
The other day I met Ray Parker Jr and Kenny Loggins, and it was so great talking to them because they're so normal (laughs). Whereas when I meet somebody like Laurie Anderson, she's more like me; she comes in, the first thing she says is, 'Let's order 10 portions of ribs, sit around and feed our faces and just go at it.' The energy, or let's say the neuroses, the way we attack the music, is different here, and the environment definitely has an effect on it. As a producer and a musician I can feel that difference when I play with LA musicians – it's much more relaxed. In New York I have a great time and it's fun, but it's definitely got that edge; there's not enough time, there's never enough time.
IM&RW: How do you work up different approaches for the various artists you work with?
NR: Well, you know, the system changes all the time. Prior to meeting the Thompson Twins I had a certain way of working, but after that I had a whole new system. Now I get very prepared for a project, by my standards – meaning I know what song I'm doing (laughs).
Today's a perfect example; I think I know the tune's key, and I think I remember the bass line, so we'll go in there and start like that (laughs). And whatever information we don't have we'll fill in the blanks and hope that the artist likes it.
IM&RW: Now that you pretty much live here, what do you slot in to the time between longer-term projects?
NR: Well, I work on artists that I've found or people that I've known for a while and say, 'Okay, let's try it out and see what we can get.' If it's good, maybe we've got the start of something. If nothing more than writing songs comes out of it, then that's cool too. But I must say that I'm always around music and I love it, so I use the studio for my own recreation too. It's fun to just come in and jam and see what we get. It's great to have the kind of freedom where you can be very liberal and lose a day, because that's what keeps you excited. You never know what you might get.
IM&RW: Have you thought about starting up your own label or expanding your production company?
NR: I have thought about it, but labels frighten me. I always think that my worth in the business is the fact that I do do everything so loosely. With a label I'd have to be responsible, do things properly, turn things in on time, have a certain amount of product per year – all that sort of thing. I just don't know if I'm old enough to accept that responsibility (laughs).
But compared to the way I used to work in the old days I feel much more prepared. A lot of times with Bernard (Edwards, bassist and co-writer/arranger/producer for Chic) we used to just go into the studio and jam and say 'Sounds like a record to me, let's go home and write some lyrics and come back.' I don't really do that too much now, although every now and then we'll go in the studio and just put one together. But lack of time, once again, has made me get more prepared. Also, I'm much more involved in the planning stages of the record with each artist now, trying to see the project through their eyes. When I was younger I wanted them to see it through my eyes, only because I didn't know any better. If you didn't sing my songs, I was afraid; I couldn't tell if it would be a hit. I felt like everything had to be a cute, double-entendre sort of lyric.
IM&RW: So now you get a demo and build the track from the bottom up?
NR: It depends. If I'm doing it with drum machines, yes, but if I'm doing it with a live band I just do it the way I've always done it; we just all go in there and learn it together. Sometimes I write out charts, sometimes we'll all copy it from the tape and write them out ourselves, and then go to it.
IM&RW: Have you been doing more live stuff lately?
NR: Well, I've always done more live stuff than drum machine stuff – always. I've done maybe three or four albums with drum machines, but I love drum machines, I think they're fabulous. And I love sequencing. I love all that sort of thing – I'm heavily into it. I guess the thing is I'm much more comfortable playing with other people; that's my normal thing. The only problem I've had is finding great musicians who are consistent and who are around when it's time to do your record (laughs). That's the real problem, because the guys who are really dependable and great players are always working – on somebody else's record (laughs).
IM&RW: Who are some of the guys you typically try to get?
NR: The guys I like to work with are Steve Ferrone and Anton Fig on the drums. See my big problem is in the drum and bass departments, because I don't have Tony (Thompson, drummer for Chic and Power Station, among others) and Bernard to work with any more – there's a serious void there. I've found this bass player, Les July, who's started working with us lately, and he's been playing great on the sessions; good sound, real eager and enthusiastic, loves to jam with the guys. Plus I've started doing a little more jamming out with guys myself, just handing out, getting a sense of what different people can do. I'm really into Felipe Seis right now, for instance; he and I have been doing some sessions together, and they've been great. Also Peter Scherer, who used to work on Synclavier out of here; now he's moved, but he's a super player.
See, the thing that I love – and I hope it's the feeling I inspire around here – is looseness, the willingness to try things out. You have no idea how many peptalks I give everybody to say, 'Hey, do something on your own. Around me you can't make any mistakes, so I'd much rather you waste time trying to be creative and adventurous than sitting around wondering what to do. You've got a recording studio, so go in there and write some songs, I don't care'. I'm much more excited by people who work like that than by people who sit around and say, Hey Nile, now what do I do? I hate complacency, and I hate people not being creative, when they've got the opportunity. There are a million kids out there who'd jump at the chance to be able to come in here and record whenever they felt like it.
Bud Tunick has been Nile's production manager for two years, since meeting him through keyboardist Rob Sabino, who did nearly all the Chic sessions.
"For the first year that I was working with Nile I handled all the production stuff alone, but we began accumulating so much equipment that it got to be too much for one person. Besides that, I do contracting for Nile, which means I get to hire – and fire, as the need may be (laughs) – musicians. That's no fun; I happened to have to do a lot of that on Mick Jagger's record, hiring and firing people I've admired and respected since I was a kid, and it was no picnic.
"I also handle a lot of business and administrative work for Nile. Kevin and I both screen tapes from publishers, keep in contact with them, make sure the musicians get paid, that kind of thing – a lot of it is paper work. I'm also the liaison with the record companies and handle all Nile's press relations.
"What we have here at Skyline is a fairly unique situation, a lock-out which means we have the studio five days a week, 24 hours a day. We base the billing on monthly time periods. So basically we're here the year round; it's a great studio to work at because it's a one-studio operation and nobody else is here. The reason we decided to shift from the Power Station to Skyline was mainly that Nile likes to work some long hours; he gets a lot more done that way. At the Power Station we were pretty much forced into doing the 11 to 7 session, and you know how things can get to cooking around the fifth or sixth hour – before you know it you're watching the clock, and then you're out of there (laughs). We tried to work out a lock-out situation there, and we were able to every now and then, but not permanently. So we ended up here, which is perfect. It allows Nile the freedom to come and go as he pleases and to spend as many hours as he wants to on a project, and gives the artist that much more time as well. It's worked out really well, except for the fact that we work some really long hours (laughs).
"One of the things I really respect is that he's not afraid to experiment; he just does things, and somehow he knows they're gonna work. He also makes really quick decisions about what he wants; it's why we can make records so quickly. My job is basically to try to anticipate things for him, because he's so focused on what's going on in the studio with whatever artist happens to be in here that that's really where his attention should be. I just try to take all the other weight and pressure off him, even down to some aspects of his personal life, so he can keep it that way. Just come to the studio, do your job, and we'll take care of the rest."
Jimmy Bralower has been Nile's electronic-drum man for almost three years.
"Nile and I work together because of the communication between us; he likes being able to communicate his ideas without having to get inside the machine and tech stuff. Back when I started doing this, there was no rule book written for drum programming, so whatever formulas I have for putting together songs I developed mostly with him.
"We've evolved a working system of sorts, but it's a procedure that's not so airtight that we fall into traps. I'll come in and listen to the demo tapes, format the songs and hook up some grooves. If there's something on there that's really special, we'll start with that, and I'll program that as the basis.
"Once I have the song fairly well locked together, he'll come in and we'll really tighten it up.
"The basic rule is that we streamline. Sometimes he may sit at the keyboard and jam along with me in the machine, and I'll be trying different things and recording in the machine until we find a sweet spot.
"As the song changes from section to section, there might be different nuances in the program but it'll be working off a common-denominator groove. I'll add fills and things, then we'll lay it down on tape.
"Since I've been working with the Linn 9000 over the last year or so, with its built-in sequencer, we've been laying synth parts into the drum machine along with the drums, so now we can gauge the whole rhythm track. Put a bass, maybe a keyboard pad in, and suddenly we can hear the drums against some music rather than by themselves. It makes it a lot hipper for me, because I like to treat my machine as an instrument, not a computer. I'll jam with whatever music there is to jam with, whether Nile's playing live or in the machine, so I can try and get something that feels alive, rather than just real linear stuff.
"Usually whatever I put down stays down as it is. The great thing about Nile is that what some people think of as mistakes or things that don't work, he tends to use to his advantage. What happens that way is that you wind up getting parts you never would have thought of by essentially capitalising on what wasn't supposed to be; suddenly it becomes part of the arrangement. And if all the other parts are working off the so-called mistake, it becomes a viable part of the record – sometimes the most magical part.
Take Dancing On The Jagged Edge by Sister Sledge. I was screwing around with that once I had the beat, writing fills that were really out just for fun. And so, when I laid down the program, after about five minutes' worth of track, when the chorus was fading, I punched up another program to delineate that this one was done and it turned out to be this ridiculous fill that wound up being incorporated into the track as well as becoming the ending. It came out of nowhere, had nothing to do with the song, but it was cool. It worked, so we said, 'Let's use it.'
"Nile's always ready to capitalise on inspiration, so to speak, which gives you the feeling that you can be as creative as you want to be – he gives everybody loads of rope. And creativity is an easy commodity to come by on his sessions; he sets that up, it's the environment. He allows you the freedom to screw up. He also has the amazing ability to make instant decisions without seeming like he's even contemplating them. He understands that if you take too long with any particular item you run the risk of losing the spontaneity. Especially, with electronics – it's real easy to fall into that sameness, that contrived kind of sound. We try to get the machines to help us be creative; if you have an idea, the machine can remember it, even if you can only play it once. So we try to let those accidents happen."
James Farber has been Nile's recording and mixing engineer for the last 1½ years, since working with the producer on Mick Jagger's She's The Boss.
"Nile likes to work with an engineer who can handle everything technical so he doesn't have to think about that, and can just make music and produce. He usually doesn't have to tell me too much, he doesn't want to get too technical about my side of things. I just go for what I hear and he trusts that.
"The technology really helps us along. Everything we do is digital: the Sony digital multitrack can be programmed to punch-in and punch-out to the millisecond. That way you can avoid that little click or lip noise in the middle of a word, say, which you can never do on a regular tape recorder. Also, we use the Synclavier to do a lot of sampling, so basically we can rearrange a lot of the vocal parts after the singers leave. They only have to get one really good chorus, and then we can take the vamp and put down a whole bunch of different ideas, sample them into the Synclavier, and then put them back where we want them. That way you're not wasting anybody's time, nobody's getting tired or bored.
"When we mix on a 24-track song, which most of our stuff is, it usually takes about a day per song – it's easy to mix, because Nile arranges everything so well. I do most of it: I'll start on it around noon, then after dinner I'll call him up and say, 'Come on in', and we'll finish it up together. That way he listens with fresh ears. Sometimes he'll say, 'That's it, just put an eighth-note delay on the guitar in the bridge and we'll have it;' or, 'Bring the lead vocal up a touch more in the second verse' – that kind of thing. Other times he'll say, 'Maybe we should go for a more aggressive drum sound on this one,' so we'll spend some time revamping it that way. But for the most part I get a lot of freedom. I also get to add a lot musically because Nile plays almost all the instruments on the sessions, so I'm the extra set of ears: and once in a while, when there's a keyboard part that requires a little extra technique in the pinky area, I'll play the line.
"As far as the studio setup, we have an SSS4000 with 48 inputs, a great sounding control room with speakers based on a Urei design, two EMT140 plates and a 140 gold foil which sound really good, the Quantec Room Simulator, the AMS reverb, the Yamaha Rev 7, and the Lexicon 224X. So we're pretty well set for those kinds of effects. Sometimes I'll set up a speaker and mikes out in the lounge area here or the vestibule, which are both very live, and use that for loud, trashy ambience.
"Being all-digital presents mostly advantages. If you're recording a song and you like the sound you're getting, that's it, whereas on an analogue tape you'd have to add some treble in the mix because it wears away. Of course, the fact that it's noiseless is probably digital's biggest feature. There are some disadvantages, which I don't even think about any more. You can't shuttle the tape as easily, because you have to punch in a number and locate. And the analogue sound isn't as bright, so for some songs I like that sound better; it's punchier on the bottom, and everything kind of mushes together.
"As far as microphones go, we use them mostly for vocals and guitar – everything else is direct, unless it's live. I usually use Shures or Sennheisers on a drum kit, and AKG condensers on the overhead to the cymbals. For guitars I usually stick to Shures. Obviously the microphone choice is most important for the vocals, and for that I always have the lead vocalist sing it through a couple of times and test out a handful of mikes. Nile has a tube 47 which is exceptional and often ends up as the choice, but it depends on the singer, sometimes it's a 414, an 87, a 67, or sometimes a dynamic, like a 57 or 58."
Kevin Jones, is one of Nile's two production managers; his area of specialisation is the Synclavier and other keyboards, in addition to MIDI-ing things up as required.
"Basically, I take care of the Synclavier, which I program. I also take care of the guitar inventory, make sure that everything's functioning and accessible. We've been trying to get together some kind of little production room, so that we can have artists for the production company come in here and knock tracks down. We also use it to do piano sequences and keyboard pads, loading them into the Synclavier here and then taking the Synclavier into the studio, where it just spews everything out.
"So what we've got in this room is the Synclavier state-of-the-art system, polyphonic, totally MIDI-ed and synced-up via SMPTE; around 35 guitars, ranging from vintage Gibsons to new Tokais; a Juno 60; a Casio 5000; a Casio CZ-101; a Prophet 500; a Kurzweil; a Triac two-track digital recorder; and the Akai MG 1212.
"I find MIDI works fine if you use judgement on how many keyboards you need to use. If you're conservative and use just what you really need, two or three things MIDI-ed together, that's more than sufficient. If you use a greater number of keyboards, you start losing the whole reason behind doing it anyway; it just becomes a mishmash of sounds which you could probably achieve on one keyboard, if you thought about it. But the combinations you can get are endless. I mean, I don't want to be Rick Wakeman and conquer the world (laughs).
"Between Budd (Tunick) and myself, we also schedule the musicians if it's a live session. Nile's starting to get a taste for live drumming again, so that's the basic tracks, and at that point, pads – keyboard pads – will be required. Some of the sequencing is done in here. We'll lay a click track down. Nile will put the chords in for maybe a verse, a chorus and a bridge, and I'll fix it to go in the correct spaces.
"Eventually the whole sequence is spewed out. I may change sounds or timbres, make the sequences out of one. That's the great beauty of it, you can do anything you want. Then we can just run that back in sync with the Linn.
"It's hard to describe exactly how I work with Nile, because it's spur-of-the-moment. He'll say, I want some string sounds, or a heart-attack sound, or a long-decay sound; there's a library of about 1,500 sounds we can access. I mean, we have dog barks, flutes, horns, violins, pieces of Nile's guitar, a gunshot. So the best I can do is come vicinity, and he'll weed out what he doesn't want.
"The set up in the studio is usually something like this: we decode SMPTE through an SBX-80 box, which then will give us a pulse that the Synclavier can decode and divide into quarter-notes, eighth-notes, 16th notes, and so on. We usually use the Synclavier as the master keyboard, because it's a beautiful keyboard. The greatest combination is probably the Synclavier and the CZ-101, which is quite a difference – $180,000 and $200 (laughs). But it sounds great. The Synclavier lacks harsh attack sounds, it's a very pretty instrument; it doesn't have the heavy attack textures you get with a Yamaha ora Casio. The Casio is very sharp-sounding, which together with the Synclavier creates a more interesting sound.
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Interview by Gene Santoro
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