In front rooms, backrooms, bedrooms and sometimes even bathrooms all over the country, thousands of people are doing the same thing: producing a demo tape.

It can be regarded as the musician's application form, and it always says the same thing: 'This is my music; what do you think?'

However, this cassette is often sent on no more than a wing and a prayer. You have your own views on the merits of your offering, having been so closely involved with its making, you may well be biased one way or the other. There's no way of telling whether your cassette is what the business wants to hear at that particular time. Indeed, for the more experienced but as yet unsuccessful applicant, the usual reply offers no helpful clues as to how the sender might get it right next time.

So with this in mind I assembled a group of people whose job it is to sift through those piles of jiffy bags.

Former artist and A&R manager, Phil Rambow has had much experience in all areas of the business and is now a freelance manager. Sam Spade and Francesca Sayers are both in the A&R department of Phonogram Records in London, and John Fishlock is a professional manager for publishing company Chrysalis Music.

I first wanted to establish how many tapes arrive on their desks for consideration.

JF: I personally get about 30 tapes a week to deal with.

SS: Our department receives about 100 a week, but it varies.

PR: I don't get more than three tapes a week, although sometimes no tapes at all. The ones I get from a management point of view are mostly from personal contacts.

Will every tape that arrives be listened to?

SS: Yes, it's just that some things get taken more seriously than others, but there's always the thought that the tape you just sent back might be 'the one'.

PR: Any company that doesn't bother to listen to unsolicited demo tapes is not a company worth dealing with. All the major labels make sure that at all the tapes get listened to.

One constant complaint is that you only play the first couple of bars, and if it hasn't grabbed you by then, it's too late?

"You've simply got to have that driving ambition. You've got to want to beat the world, and whatever you need to get there you've got to get it."

SS: My argument to that is you don't put your best song as the fifth track. I mean, what do they expect us to do, go over every inch of the cassette? I listen to tapes until I get bored, like listening to a record, when you get bored you take it off.

Dedication

What do you look for in a cassette?

SS: When you're playing a cassette, you've got to feel that there is a certain amount of commitment to what they're doing. If it looks and sounds professional, they're showing you that it's rather more than a hobby.

Isn't there a danger that someone who hasn't got the money or the facilities will get passed over because of a lack of recording finesse?

SS: I don't ever accept that as an excuse. If they're serious enough about it they get the money. Some people come in with cassettes and you can instantly tell that it's just a hobby to them, you can hear the difference. When people give me that excuse about money or lack of facilities, it tells me that they are not serious enough.

PR: We have got to a stage now where you have to get for yourself the things you need to get where you want to go, and that means to the top. You've simply got to have that driving ambition. You've got to want to beat the world, and whatever you need to get there you've got to get it. If that means you've got to earn money to pay for the studio, then you earn money.

Do people not think as much as they should about what a tape says about a band's total attitude? I get the impression that they think you're just going to either like or dislike the song.

JF: If you are trying for a job with a company, you present yourself in the best possible way with a CV and so forth. You should have the same attitude when presenting your tape. After all, you are out to impress in one of the most competitive markets there is.

SS: When we get a tape we have to play it to other people, and if you find yourself apologising about the quality of that tape before it's even played, it's an immediate downer on it. It's not simply for our benefit, because we want to listen to well-recorded material, it's for their benefit too. I want to be able to put a tape on in a meeting and say: 'this is good,' not 'well, it's a bit dodgy, it was only done on an 8-track because he didn't have the money.'

You often hear people talking in terms of percentage demos. That is, deliberately taking a demo to say 70 per cent completion and leaving room for the record or publishing company to make an input.

SS: There's no point in doing that. They should take it as far as they can possibly go. Obviously they won't be able to go all the way unless they're very rich because we are talking thousands of pounds, but they can take it to the limit of their capabilities.

JF: Someone can take it over from there. If a singer/songwriter shows some potential as a producer it may be an additional incentive to a company. So yes, they should take their recording as far as they possibly can.

"A lot of people really don't realise that we're running a business just like any other, you're out there to create money for the company, not give it away to bands to muck around with..."

PR: I think it's important to point out the difference between getting what Sam was talking about, ie. the wherewithal to provide yourself with the best possible things, and getting yourself into a compromise situation where they think they're providing the best for themselves. This takes us into the home recording sphere. I think John would have to agree that there is nothing better than a 24-track demo, except of course a 48-track demo. You can't compete, but I think a lot of musicians at home are losing the thread of what they're trying to do by trying to become expert home recording engineers as opposed to being singer/songwriter/performing artists. The definition of what you want to do is very important and must remain clear. You have to sell yourself at every given stage of the game, so you have to know what your intentions are. If you want to be a singer, a songwriter, producer or engineer, then you must present that in a straightforward and pure way. If you don't want to be an engineer or producer then don't muck around. Don't say 'well, of course I could do this better if you gave me some money'. If you don't want to do it then get someone else who has the ambition to be an engineer or producer and work with them.

SS: There's a tendency for people to come into record companies thinking that we are loan agencies, saying things like 'we've got an interesting idea, can you give us the money to finish it off.' Now to me, that's stupid, it's not a game, lots of people's lives depend on it. I've seen bands we've signed up and then it's suddenly dawned on them that it's not a game any more.

JF: A lot of people really don't realise that we're running a business just like any other, you're out there to create money for the company, not give it away to bands to muck around with and get their ideas together. You're trying to sell product.

Behind the Scenes

You're all from different areas of the business. Do demo tapes fulfil the same function for each of you?

JF: We have a manager, record company and publisher here and you've got to remember that a manager would probably be with an act before it came to either of us two. A publisher would get a stage two demo, while the record company would get stage three. There is a great trend now to present a record company with a 16- or 24-track demo, whereas a publishing company may well find a 4-track acceptable and then re-demo it before approaching a record company on the band's behalf. The three areas are very much related, Phil might come to me for a publishing deal and we might then put the band in a 24-track studio, organise pictures and a showcase before calling Sam and saying 'this is the package, what do you think?'

Would you say that in general, the music business would rather get involved at a higher level when more has been finalised and knocked in to shape by the band themselves?

SS: I keep telling people that we are not closet musicians, living out our fantasies through other people. They have to come to us with an idea that we couldn't conceive and then we use our knowledge and contacts and take it on from there.

PR: And managers aren't Svengalis either! Managers don't say 'right, stop this and start doing this and you're going to wind up being successful.' Maybe that happened once in the past. Great successes are a meeting of minds. A great artist knows what he wants to do and he finds a manager who can work with the artist to present the artist at his best. He may mould things slightly or put some money in to buy clothes or whatever, or maybe add some objective criticism, but it never happens that a manager tells an artist how to write to be successful.

SS: It's naive to think that all you have to do is present a seed of talent and the big wheels of the music industry will then go into motion to make you into a star. There's no room for naivety in the music business.

But isn't it inevitable that, many young bands, for instance, are going to be naive about the way the business operates?

JF: It's important to remember the sheer number of bands in existence. Unless you can walk in with an obvious number one, you are competing at any one time with maybe 150 other bands. The band that gets on will be the one with the greatest commitment.

"We get lots of tapes from bands who are really good but there's no sense of direction. They can be great for what they are, but they're not new."

PR: There's an interesting case of a group which has recently got itself an album deal. Their demo arrived on my desk when I was working in A&R at a record company with an invitation to a showcase at one of London's major rehearsal studios. The band had management and people who were willing and able to help them make this demo, which is 24-track, and it was clear that the band were able to do exactly what they wanted, with virtually no regard for budget. They had a demo that they had spent time on and were happy with, and they were able to get record company executives, A&R men, and managing directors all to come along to the showcase.

The sound at the showcase was superb. Their manager produced the demo and mixed the sound at the showcase. It was a lot easier then for a record company to come in and realise that the band knew what they were doing. They knew how they wanted to sound and how they wanted to look. Nobody was making excuses about lack of money.

Now there if there's someone sitting in his bedroom with his 4-track recorder and a guitar, wondering how to get it all together, the simple answer is that you just do. It's not just money, it's talent as well. Talent attracts talent, you play with the best people you know, then you find you attract a manager who believes in you and will be able to help you. Once it's together he'll go and convince a publisher or a record company. These people in London have an incredibly high sense of critical acumen, and you've got to please those who are used to hearing everything. It's tough.

A New Approach

When you're getting through so many tapes it must be hard to find something which is really new or exciting.

SS: 99 per cent of tapes sent in never get any further than a first hearing. In one whole year I can only think of one tape that I got in and pursued. It's all we could get.

PR: How are young artists and musicians going to find something new to say at this point in time? If you look at people who actually do something 'new', you'll usually find they're taking a sideways tangent. It's very difficult to explain this approach. If someone brings you a tape that's not a finished record, it's difficult for an A&R man or publisher to stand up and say it's the most innovative, brand new thing he's ever seen. What'll happen is the artist will express his art and his point of view in an environment which people will say is a new thing. This is usually done through the way he or she dresses, their friends, their political point of view, or just the vibe around what they're saying. It's who you are and what you are trying to get across as well as the tape.

FS: We get lots of tapes from bands who are really good but there's no sense of direction. They can be great for what they are, but they're not new.

SS: A lot of bands come in thinking we're looking for a photofit pop band. In fact that's why we send back most tapes; they fall into one of two categories. They are either just plain terrible or they are photofit Whams or Duran Durans. Why bother to sell another Duran Duran when we've already got one?

SS: Copying is very obvious. Influences are more subtle. Production has spiralled upwards and everyone has been influenced by each other, but above all you have to be modern.

PR: The band I was talking about earlier was a good case in point. They used all the classic influences as influences and not as imitation. Companies liked the way they used these influences, they thought they were modern and gave the band the chance to make an album.

SS: On the subject of originality, no one in the business is impressed by the novelty approach which some people seem to think makes an impression on us. I've had six months worth of balloons sent in, or postcards, or jigsaw puzzles and I'm telling you they go straight in the bin.

"Lyrics are probably the most important thing when submitting a song to be covered, the lyric has to suit the artist."

JF: From a publisher's point of view it's always useful to have a lyric sheet sent in. If you're presenting a band, a biography, pictures, maybe in a folder. That will stand out, not balloons and jigsaws.

One Man One Tape

You raised an interesting distinction there. So far we have been talking about the type of approach which should be made by bands. Let's talk about the songwriter, who has a Portastudio at home and harbours no ambition to actually perform the songs himself on record. Is he in a different situation to a band in terms of the type of recordings he should be making?

JF: What he needs to present is basically a well constructed demo of the song. In this case we're selling simply the song rather than the whole package. The writer should show that he has some idea where he wants the song to go. If he's writing a song which may be covered by Barbara Dickson or Five Star, there is no point him hauling in a full rock band. He has to construct the demo to be aimed at that particular artist. The vocal should be up front with distinct lyrics. Lyrics are probably the most important thing when submitting a song to be covered, the lyric has to suit the artist.

Can it be as simply presented as a piano and voice demo?

JF: Why not? One of our writers went into the 8-track studio at Chrysalis recently and came out with six songs in two hours, on just acoustic guitar and voice, and they were great. That is rare, but usually an 8-track demo with bass, drums, guitar, keyboards, vocal and a harmony is quite sufficient.

PR: What I said earlier about rock bands not spending time trying to be great home recording engineers does not apply to songwriters. If you're a songwriter and you have no ambitions to be a performing artist in your own right, then your time, money and energy could be spent in no better way than learning how to make really good home demos. It'll stand you in really good stead, make you self sufficient, and it's a more attractive proposition to have a songwriter attached to a company who does his own recording rather than one who has to come in and get a budget off the publisher all the time.

Do you find there's much confusion among people who bring you tapes as to whether they want to be writers or performers?

JF: I often find with singer/songwriters that the song is stronger than the voice in which case I will ignore the performance and just listen to the song. If on his next visit with more material he still seems to have ambitions as a singer, I might tell him to forget it and concentrate on his writing.

What is the best number of tracks to put on a cassette? You played me one earlier where the guy had filled both sides with 11 songs (all sounding the same I might add)!

SS: From a record company point of view, I wouldn't put any more than three on, and, of course, your best one first.

JF: Yes even if they come to a publisher with a catalogue of 120 songs, all I really want to hear at this stage is the three which they think are the best.

When I was an engineer, we used to come across many cases, some with experienced artists, where a lot of time was spent trying to capture the essence of a brilliant demo and even then, after hiring equipment or top session players, the supposed master paled in comparison with the original demo. Is there not a danger that if, as you say, you should be looking to push your demo to its absolute limit, you end up firing your best shots before you get round to confronting your target?

PR: I believe repetition kills the soul, and that the only truly great records are full of magic, and there are very few great records made every year, regardless of what side of the Atlantic you are on. You have to understand that if you're going to do something great and you can do it in a 24-track studio, and have a record company behind you to release your product, then you're going to have a career.

A lot of people don't have careers because they have spent all their emotion, and done a great performance on something in the wrong environment. They have been at home, on a demo and when they've come to master it, it doesn't translate into a decent record. You've got a band who are together, they know what they're doing, and they go in and make a demo, then suddenly it's a great record. It may only be 8-track or 16-track but it's a great record.

Now the first thing a record company is going to want to do is go into a big budget recording studio, with a big producer and do a 'proper' recording. An intelligent record company, with good people working for it will be able to tell that even with the money spent, even with a great producer, if the demo is better, then that's the record that's got to go out.

JF: As it happens 'Johnny Come Home' by the Fine Young Cannibals was the original 16-track demo and that charted. So having started out trying to find what publishers and A&R men are looking for when they wade through the mountains of C60s, C90s and the like, I was left with the conclusion, most graphically illustrated, that if you're a songwriter, give the song priority, but if you are a band, treat your demo as if it was the master itself, as uncompromised as possible. Indeed, it may be that what you capture on your demo is the 'magic' that constitutes a great record, and ultimately ends up making the relatively short journey to vinyl.